On the occasion of the release of Lit From Within: Contemporary Masters on the Art and Craft of Writing, co-edited by Dinty W. Moore and Kevin Haworth, we include here an interview with Moore, conducted by Devin Murphy (creative writing PhD student at University of Nebraska-Lincoln, and editorial assistant for Prairie Schooner) during Moore’s visit to UNL last fall.
Dinty W. Moore’s memoir, Between Panic and Desire (University of Nebraska Press), was winner of the 2009 Grub Street Nonfiction Book Prize. His other books include The Accidental Buddhist, Toothpick Men, The Emperor’s Virtual Clothes, and the writing guide, The Truth of the Matter: Art and Craft in Creative Nonfiction. In addition to editing the internet journal, Brevity, he is on the editorial board of Creative Nonfiction and is coordinating editor for the anthology Best Creative Nonfiction. He currently heads Ohio University’s Creative Writing BA, MA, and PhD programs, and is the president of Associated Writing Programs.
Devin Murphy: How do you prioritize your writing life?
Dinty Moore: It gets squeezed, but even before graduate school I made it a job. I set aside so many hours a week for writing and that’s what I do, and I have to be there. I’m a university guy so it works out that I do that first thing in the morning. I get up, make my coffee, and sit in front of the computer. I do that before I do any other stuff so there is always some space for it.
Are you working on anything right now?
I’m working on a very short book which is essentially a lot of quotes from other writers for a publisher that specializes in Buddhist books. The quotes themselves aren’t Buddhist, but the book is going to be called The Mindful Writer, so it looks at how those quotes resonate with some of the thoughts about mindfulness.
Then I’m working on another book of nonfiction that is really, really at the very beginning stages. So when I say I’m working on it I mean I have seven to eight pages written and thirty pages of notes, but that’s where books start. This one is sort of a riff on The Divine Comedy and Dante, and sort of an attempt to do a 21st-century, quirky, funny, weird nonfiction look at heaven and hell, and how our views of that have changed and where they fit into our society now. Since, you know, we are a very different people then we were five hundred years ago.
Once you finish a book project, does something of that project remain with you and inform your writing, or do you have to clear the slate and start from scratch? Here you are dealing with Buddhism again a decade after you wrote The Accidental Buddhist.
When I finished The Accidental Buddhist—and I was lucky because it did well, it still sells, ten years later, which is a nice thing—I got a lot of offers to do Buddhist books, and a couple of Buddhist publishers approached me to do Buddhist books. And I probably could have carved out a career, and been more successful, at least in terms of numbers of books sold, if I just kept turning out Buddhist books because of branding and audience. But I just didn’t have it in me. One of the things I like about nonfiction writing is that you can have a short attention span. If something fascinates you for three weeks you think about it for three weeks and write a very short essay. If something fascinates you for six months then you just immerse yourself in it for six months and write a longer essay. And if you have two or three or four years of fascination in something and if you have the patience and energy to explore it, then you say, I’m going to write a book about this. But then you turn the page, and say, now I’m interested in something else. So I felt like I said what I wanted to say about Buddhism in The Accidental Buddhist, said more than I wanted to say because I’m not an expert. So I turned down those offers to develop other projects until recently, when this one came up and I thought, “I can do that.”
It was your lack of expertise in The Accidental Buddhist that was the real charm of that book.
Well, I remember thinking about Walter Mitty at the time, and Plimpton did it too. There is a certain energy to not being an expert and throwing yourself into whatever it is and saying, I’m going to try to understand this. The reader can identify with that. If you are trying to reach your reader on a certain level, and you are a wide-eyed, nascent stumblebum, who is just trying to make sense of things, that is a pretty good voice on the page too.
When you find yourself working on these long projects, when do you know it’s going to be a book, and how do you find your binding element or narrative arc so it’s cohesive and not just a series of loosely connected events?
The moment where you realize it’s a book comes and goes. I’m convinced at the beginning of the book, and then three or six months into it I’m like, “What was I thinking?” Then I rediscover it again. Then I lose it and rediscover that narrative arc. I usually think I have one, then near the end of the project when I finally have fifteen or twenty chapters, and they are still all rough, I realize the one I had won’t work and I’ll have to come up with a new one.
It’s an iterative process. I’m not the first writer to say that. I started as a journalist, then when I got interested in writing literary work and work that would end up in literary magazines, I started writing fiction, and did my MFA in fiction, and it was magical to me to realize that you could start a short story and have no idea how it was going to end and that the characters would dictate to you eventually, if you could find the way into the characters.
It’s not quite the same in nonfiction, but I still have that leap of faith. I don’t quite know what my voice is going to be in this book, I don’t really understand the structure, I don’t really understand what the payout will be that will make a reader or publisher care, but if I work on it long enough, I’ll discover it. Whether it is an essay or a book, that’s the way it works. So instead of the characters dictating to you where the book is going to go, and where it will end, it is the material that dictates where the book will go and where it will end. But I can’t know that upfront. I think other writers do, but I don’t.
So once you’ve been immersed in it for a long time you can start feeling your way through it?
Both immersed in the material and also immersed in trying to put the material on the page. I love revision. If you give me two hundred pages of rough draft and send me off into a room for a year, I’m the happiest boy on the planet. I’ll revise for the rest of my life if you let me. I don’t like generating new material.
I’m curious to hear you say you don’t like generating new material.
Yeah, it’s hard, it’s scary, and it’s painful. It’s like yanking hairs out of your beard one at a time, one word at a time until you finally have a chapter. Then playing with that chapter is fun, it’s like sitting on the floor and playing with Play-Doh.
In your essay “Mr. Plimpton’s Revenge: A Google Maps Essay,” you mention that at this point in your career, you’ve done several immersion books similar to what Plimpton did. And you just mentioned how scary it is to generate new material, but it sounds like that might be one of the most fun parts of your job.
Well, it’s fun to go out and meet people, and it’s fun to have people tell you their stories, and they will tell you their stories. And it was fun to hang out at Buddhist monasteries for The Accidental Buddhist, but then you have to write it up, and that’s what’s hard. You have to make that work on the page.
Now I’m curious what you think the role of courage is, in this kind of writing.
I think in any literary writing the role of courage is important, whether it is poetry, fiction, or nonfiction. In any art form there is a leap of faith that the individual can make a statue, a painting, or write a poem that’s actually going to stand by itself and be worth looking at. The idea that I’m going to start this project without knowing how it will work out, but if I just show up every day and work on it that it will work out…I mean, those are two big leaps of faith. I guess a third leap of faith is somewhere, somehow an audience will see your painting, read your poem, buy your book, which drives so many of us crazy. But I guess that is what is so exciting about it. There are no guarantees. If you loaded trucks for a living, you show up in the morning and load the truck and you know the job is done. But with writing, you load the truck and have to hope someone says that it’s a well-loaded truck before you get the emotional pay off.
You mentioned other forms of art, and I’ve looked on your Flickr account, and know that you are serious about your photography as well.
I love photography. I think I love it because it’s storytelling, it’s artistic expression, but it’s not my career. It’s fun. I have a good lens and a good camera and I spend a lot of time looking for things to take pictures of that aren’t obvious. I try not to take the average tourist pictures. But beyond that it is just fun. I’m not selling the work, I’m not submitting it to my tenure committee, so there is much less pressure involved. I love taking pictures.
Does that ever feed into your writing or is it just a release?
It’s just a release. I mean, I loved, as a fiction writer, finding a character and imagining what his or her story was. And you do the same thing in nonfiction, you just can’t imagine it, you have to discover it in other ways by talking to or watching people. And I photograph people more than anything else because I like taking pictures of people and imagining what their story is, so I guess there is a link there in my writing.
As entrenched as you are in nonfiction writing, you’ve mentioned starting as a fiction writer several times now. In my research on you, I came across many references you make to your appreciation of Kurt Vonnegut. So how has someone like Vonnegut fit into your writing career?
You know, like everybody in my generation I discovered Vonnegut as an undergrad, and he blew my mind. I thought, Oh my goodness, how can he be so irreverent and so funny and say these things. And I never grew out of it. I now work in a department of English literature and I’m not sure he was taken seriously by a lot of my colleagues, but I still take him seriously. I think he was a genius. I don’t think anyone else can write like him.
Vonnegut has that real dark humor, but I think your writing is really light yet touches on heavy subject matter. Is that something that plays in naturally when you write? Are you trying to bring a dose of humor, or is that your personality coming to the page? I guess I’m asking about how humor plays out in your work.
I’m going to step back and say that I think that finding your voice as a writer—and I think this is true of all genres, it is certainly true of nonfiction—finding your voice as a writer is really 80 percent letting your natural personality come out on the page, and maybe 20 percent is: I’m writing this, and do I want to dial this up a little bit, and dial that down a little bit. But I really feel like that is the way to find your authentic voice—to find your authentic personality and let it bubble up out of the work.
So I tend to crack jokes. I tend to especially crack jokes when I’m around uncomfortable material, and I tend to have a black Irish humor, which is me in real life. So the extent it shows up in my work—that is just my personality bubbling up through. I feel like I was lucky when I finally figured out how to do that. When I look at my earlier work I see that here I was trying to be Carver, here I was trying to be Thurber, and here I was trying to be Woody Allen, and none of those were me.
Is it interesting to look back on being a student of craft now that your own books on craft are used in MFA programs?
Discovering that there was a craft was kind of exciting to me. I went to graduate school to be a fiction writer, and I was already thirty years old, but I was still very naive. I still had these goofy notions that you were born with genius and being a writer was just having a great idea. And maybe, maybe, maybe somehow I would stumble into a great idea. Then I realized how much of writing I could break down. You can mechanically look at how a scene works, and mechanically look at how a chapter works, and mechanically look at how suspense is built, and to a certain extent how humor works on the page. I was like, oh great, I can actually get better. I can learn this stuff. Though it’s not to say that writing is like being a mechanic, as there is still a lot of mystery in any art form, but what I’m saying is that they are both existent. There is still that mystery of where these ideas come from, but there are also these deliberate steps you make when you are revising a story and you say, Wait a minute, I know how to do this.
So when you are working as an editor and working through the slush pile, what really excites you, and when do you know you have something you want to publish?
For Brevity, it is a slightly different equation because the pieces have to be so concise that they rest a lot on the moment: where do they begin and how quickly does the trouble get complex. For Brevity the pieces rely a lot on language. Every single word choice has to be very sharp. Every single pause and hem has to be edited out because you have only seven hundred and fifty words, often less.
In the longer essay it comes down to subject matter and voice. So I’m reading the first couple pages of an essay and I’m understanding it’s about growing up in a poor rural family in Ohio, or growing up with a sister who had a fatal disease, or I’m reading a piece and realize it is about a broken marriage; I have to ask, Where is the promise in the first page that the writer is going to make me think about this differently? I know having a sick sister is sad, but if all this is going to tell me is that having a sick sister who dies young is sad, where is some other facet—how is the writer going to make me think of this differently?
Then there is finding something appealing in the way the writer is telling the story: the voice, the sentence structure, the lyricism, the Carver-esque brusqueness, whatever. There is no subject you can’t write about because it’s been written about before, but the minute you pick a subject that has been written about before, which is almost all of them, then you have to think, what is my fresh take on this? Maybe not at the beginning, as you may discover that fresh take on draft fifteen, but in the end there has to be something fresh.
I have one final and random question for you. I’ve read that among all the many things you’ve done prior to getting into writing and teaching, you were a zookeeper. How did that come into your life?
It was a summer job as a high school kid. It was painting fences at the zoo, and I was pretty responsible. While everyone else was off in the woods smoking dope, I actually painted fences, and the boss figured that out, so he brought me back the next year for the summer. And as each of the zookeepers would rotate off for three weeks for vacation, he’d say: you’re going to go help Leo up at the elephant barn this week, or you’ll be down at the monkey shed this week, or I need you over at the kiddy zoo helping with the goats this week. That went over two summers when I got to be the fill-in zookeeper. Then I got to be the night watchman, who got to take care of the animals when the zoo was closed. So I’d wander around until midnight checking on the animals, giving them their water and their food. It was wonderful! Especially at night. The zoo at night is when the animals come alive because the sun is gone and the crowd is gone.
About the interviewer: Devin Murphy's work has appeared in the Greensboro Review, The MacGuffin, PANK, and Many Mountains Moving, among other journals and anthologies. The Linkage of Bone, which appeared in last summer’s Missouri Review, is the title story of his recently completed collection of linked stories.
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